当红生态

人物篇 ‖ 访联合国环境署驻华处前国家项目官员蒋南青

发表时间：2020-05-10 20:26




嘉宾简介

Guest Profile

蒋南青，女，现任北京绿行者网络科技有限公司董事长兼总经理、中国合成树脂协会塑料循环利用分会秘书长、链家公益基金会理事。她先后在日本、以色列和肯尼亚的大学及国际研究机构从事农业生态方面的博士后研究工作7年，她曾负责联合国环境署在中国的气候变化项目工作，在中国开展绿色经济倡议和可持续建筑与气候倡议等多个活动。


Jiang Nanqing, female, currently serves as president and general manager of Beijing Greenwalker Network Technology Co. Ltd., general secretary of Plastic Recycling Branch of China Synthetic Resin Association, and the director of Home Link Public Welfare Foundation. She has been doing post-doctoral research in agroecology for seven years at universities and international research institutions in Japan, Israel and Kenya. She has worked on the UNEP’s climate change program in China, where she has carried out various activities including the Green Economy Initiative, Sustainable Building and Climate Initiative.



主持人：大家好，欢迎收看大型网络访谈节目《当红生态人物》，我是主持人郭智孚。联合国，对于我们每个普通人来说，是陌生又熟悉，是那么遥远，却又那么亲近。这些年，联合国不止维护世界和平上做了很多努力，同时，联合国在环境保护方面也做出了很多不可磨灭的贡献。今天我们有幸邀请到联合国环境署驻华处前国家项目官员——蒋南青老师，她会给我们带来怎样的环保故事和经验呢，让我们掌声有请蒋南青老师！

Host: Hello, everyone! Welcome to our grand internet interviews broadcast, Popular Eco-people, I am the host, Guo Zhifu. The United Nations, for each of us, is strange but familiar, distant but close. In recent year, the United Nations has made a lot of indelible contributions not only to world peace, but also to environmental protection. Today we have the honor to invite Ms. Jiang Nanqing, former National Program Officer of the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) in China. What kind of story and experience of environmental protection will she bring to us? Let’s welcome Ms. Jiang!


蒋南青：大家好，主持人好！

Jiang Nanqing: Hello, everyone! Hello, Mr. Guo!



QUESTION1


主持人：欢迎蒋南青老师来我们《当红生态人物》节目作客！蒋老师，听说您会来参加我们节目，我们的网友都特别高兴，今天的第一个问题就是网友提的，他们想知道您是通过一个什么样的机会进入联合国环境署工作的呢？

Host: Ms. Jiang, it is truly an honor to invite you to our show, Popular Eco-people. Our audience are very happy to hear that you will come to our channel. Today's first question is raised by one of the audience- how did you get into the work of UNEP?

蒋南青：2007年以前，我一直做科学研究工作，包括读博士和做博士后工作等等。2007年，我从肯尼亚的国际昆虫研究所回到北京后，在国际竹藤组织做欧盟生物多样性项目。一年后，看到联合国环境署驻华代表处招聘气候变化项目官员，我就这样进入了联合国。我的经历算是比较独特的，因为联合国入职门槛是硕士就可以了，一般不招专门做研究的人。联合国环境署作为联合国负责环境事务的专门机构，对于环境专业的要求就更高一些，我也很幸运能有这个机会进入到联合国工作。不过现在拥有博士学位的人也越来越多了。


Jiang Nanqing: Until 2007, I was doing scientific research, including doctoral studies and post-doctoral work. In 2007, I returned to Beijing from the International Institute of Entomology in Kenya to work on the EU Biodiversity Project at the International Bamboo and Rattan Organization. A year later, I found that UNEP in China was recruiting officers for the Climate Change Project. That's how I got into the United Nations. My experience is quite unique, because the United Nations requires a master's degree, and generally do not recruit people specialized in research. As a specialized agency of the United Nations in charge of environmental affairs, UNEP is a little more demanding in the environmental profession, and I was fortunate to have this opportunity to work for the United Nations. But now we have more and more colleagues with PhDs.





QUESTION2


主持人：您刚提到了气候变化。我们知道：全球变暖、冰川融化、海平面上升、陆地面积减少、极端天气发生的频率增加这些都和气候变化息息相关！在气候变化面前，人类似乎显得非常渺小，那蒋老师，您可以和我们谈谈气候变化吗？

Host: You mentioned climate change just now. We know that global warming, melting glaciers, rising sea levels, decreasing land area, and the increasing frequency of extreme weather are all closely related to climate change. In the face of climate change, human beings seem to be very tiny. Ms. Jiang, could you talk about climate change with us?


蒋南青：好的。2008年开始，气候变化开始成为全球关注的议题。特别是2008年年底召开的哥本哈根气候变化缔结方大会，当时各缔结方对大会寄予了很大的期望。实际上这次大会以失败告终，没有达成协议，不过这件事情却是一个非常好的起点，中国很多民间组织和公众正是因为哥本哈根这个大会知道的气候变化。

气候变化问题是属于大气的问题，大气分成两个方面，第一个是近地表层的问题，表现是空气污染，第二个是远地表层的问题，也就是我们常说的气候变化。气候变化关乎到地球和全人类，联合国环境署之前集中在大气层面的工作是保护包括臭氧层的保护等。大家应该知道我们的臭氧层受到了破坏，南极上空出现了空洞，主要是由于人类大量排放的CFC等有害物质会破坏臭氧层，环境署在这块的工作主要是将科学问题转化成了一些政策方面的推动，如：以签署国际公约的模式来让各国政府来禁止生产制冷剂。气候变化也采用的相似的模式，通过《京都议定书》。然而公约的束缚力还是远远不够的，每年环境署都会发布一个排放差距报告，我们可以通过这个报告看到实际排放量和目标之间的差距，以致呼吁各界共同行动。


我们现在的排放主要来源于工业端和消费端，我们的减排也是从这两端来着手的，工业端主要是通过清洁生产、提高能效等手段来减少工业污染。而消费端也是越来越重要了，体现在我们每个人生活的点点滴滴。因此，如果大家想从自己的行为来减少对气候变化的影响，就应该要先改变我们的生活方式，包括我们的衣食住行。就拿交通来说，我们可以通过绿色出行来减少车辆的行驶排放；食物本身就是从自然资源中产生的，所以食物对自然资源的消耗会有一定的影响，我们应该尽量去选择水足迹或自然足迹低的产品，现在每年全球的食物是有1/3是被浪费掉的，食物浪费问题也应该被我们重视起来。还有现在我们推动的循环经济，也是从提高资源利用率着手的，也是从提高资源利用率着手，将塑料这些再生资源要再资源化利用，这在我们未来的生活中会成为一个非常重要的议题。当然，我们还可以通过碳交易的方式来进行碳中和，比如：出行的时候会增加二氧化碳的排放，但是可以通过种树来减排，也可以在碳市场做碳交易，通过金融的方式来去做一些碳中和项目。


Jiang Nanqing: Okay. Since 2008, climate change has become a global concern. In particular, the United Nations Climate Change conference, held in Copenhagen, Denmark at the end of 2008, was placed great expectations by Parties. In fact, the conference ended in failure with no agreement reached. But this event is a good starting point. Many civil society organizations and the public in China get to know climate change because of the conference.

The issue of climate change is a part of atmosphere problem which can be divided into two aspects. The first is the problem of near-surface layer, which is manifested by air pollution. The second is the problem of far-surface layer, which is often referred to as climate change. Climate change is related to the earth and the whole human being. The previous work of UNEP on the atmospheric level is to protect the ozone layer. You know that our ozone layer has been damaged and there is a hole over the South Pole, which is mainly caused by a large number of harmful substances such as CFCs emitted by human beings. Regarding this, UNEP has made efforts to turn the scientific issues into policy impetus, such as signing of international conventions for Governments to ban refrigerant production. A similar model also has been adopted for climate change through the Kyoto Protocol. However, the restrictive power of the Convention is still far from enough. Every year, UNEP will issue an emission gap report, through which we can see the gap between the actual emissions and the target, so as to call for joint action from all walks of life.

Greenhouse gas emissions mainly come from the industrial and consumer end. Emission reduction also starts at both ends of the spectrum, with the industrial end mainly reducing industrial pollution through cleaner production, energy efficiency and other means. The consumer side is increasingly important, with consumption accounting for over 50% of GDP. Therefore, if we want to reduce the impact of climate change from our own behaviors, we should change our lifestyle, in aspects of food, clothing, housing and transportation. Take transportation as an example, we can reduce the running of vehicles through green travel. And food, itself is generated from natural resources, so the consumption of food will have a certain impact on the natural resources. We should try our best to choose products with a low water footprint or natural footprint. Globally, about 1/3 of the food is wasted every year, which means we should take this issue seriously. In addition, the circular economy that we are promoting now, also starts from improving the utilization rate of resources. The reuse of recycled resources, such as plastics, will become a very important issue in the future. Of course, we can also conduct carbon neutrality through carbon trading. For example, carbon dioxide emissions will increase when we travel, but we can reduce emissions by planting trees; or carbon trading in the carbon market, through the financial way to do some carbon neutral projects.





QUESTION3


主持人：减缓气候变化需要我们每个人共同努力，一起加油！环境署在新型城镇化建设的构思是非常前沿的，即“资源高效城市”，那我们应该怎样理解这个构思？以及“资源高效城市”和“生态低碳城市”有何区别？

Host: Mitigating climate change requires each of us to work together and make great efforts. UNEP’s vision of the new urbanism is very cutting-edge- the “resource-efficient city”. How should we understand this conception? And what is the difference between a “resource-efficient city” and an “eco-low-carbon city” ?


蒋南青：因为环境署也是做环境和资源领域的机构，所以一直非常重视我们的经济行为对环境的影响和对资源消耗的影响。环境署想尽量让经济发展和资源消耗脱钩，就是不以资源消耗和破坏环境为代价来发展经济。联合国的17个可持续发展目标中的第11个目标——可持续社区和城市和第12个目标——可持续生产和消费都是跟城市相关的。首先，城市需要外部的资源支撑才能够存活下去，一方面我们要将基础设施的能耗降低，且能够通过能源互联的方式进入到循环体系中，另一方面我们应该结合新技术采用低碳的建筑设施。其次，在城市中，我们需要拥有一些人工的生态景区和绿色空间，比如：公园，绿地等这些能让我们的城市富有缓解极端气候功能的综合建筑。最后，在城市里居住的我们要改变我们的生活方式，因为我们是在消费端，我们每个人的选择都会影响到生产端，对于产品和服务的需求应该更绿色、更可持续。资源高效城市和低碳城市的差别就是在于资源高效城市不只关注到了低碳和能源，还关注到了资源，关注到了我们的绿色生态系统，它是一个更全面的一个概念。


Jiang Nanqing: As an agency in the field of environment and resources, UNEP has always attached great importance to the impact of our economic activities on the environment and on the consumption of resources. UNEP works to promote the decoupling of economic development from resource consumption, that is, not to develop the economy at the expense of resource consumption and environmental damage. The 11th of the UN’s 17 Sustainable Development Goals-Sustainable Communities and Cities, and the 12th- Sustainable Production and Consumption, are all relevant to cities. First of all, cities need external resources to survive. On the one hand, we need to reduce the energy consumption of infrastructure, and get into the recycle system through energy interconnection. On the other hand, we should adopt low-carbon buildings with new technologies. Secondly, in the urban space, we need to have some ecological scenic areas and green spaces, such as parks, green space and so on, giving our city the functions of resisting the extreme climate and regulating the ecosystem. Finally, we need to change our lifestyles in cities, because the choices we make on the consumption end will affect the production end. Hereby the demand for products and services should be greener and more sustainable.

The difference between resource-efficient cities and low-carbon cities is that resource efficient cities focus not only on low carbon and energy, but also on resources and green ecosystems, which is a more comprehensive concept.



QUESTION4


主持人：在限塑令推行十周年（2018年）之际，您决定离开联合国环境署，进入塑料再生行业，努力建立塑料循环利用的体系。我一直认为塑料是20世纪最伟大的发明之一，它轻便，还能替代纸袋、棉绸类制品，甚至发明人的初衷就是为了环保。而现在塑料是无处不在，哪怕是大洋底部，南极北极。太平洋上漂浮的“第八大陆”都是由塑料堆成的。您怎么看待塑料从环保到污染这一问题？

Host：On the 10th anniversary of the Plastic Restriction Order (2018), you have decided to leave UNEP and enter the plastics recycling industry to strive to establish a system of plastics recycling. I have always thought of plastic as one of the greatest inventions in the 20th century, because it is lightweight and can replace paper bags, cotton and silk products, and even invented for the sake of environmental protection. But now plastic is everywhere, even at the bottom of the ocean, the North and South Poles. The eighth continent floating in the Pacific Ocean is made of plastic. What do you think of the problem that the function of plastic has changed from environmental protection to pollution?


蒋南青：塑料问题也是一个非常典型环境问题，当时发明塑料肯定是为了使人们的生活更便利，比如说我们很多衣服是由涤纶来做的，就是塑料聚酯；我们的农膜技术，大量的提高了农业的产量；我们汽车上的塑料零部件，可以有很好缓冲力；还有包括电子电器......所以整体上来说，塑料让人们的生活变得更美好，但问题在于塑料跟人的生活太过紧密，所以很难形成一种这种很好的管理体系。因此，2016年英国的艾伦·麦克阿瑟基金会出版了新塑料经济学，主要是通过循环经济的思想来管理这些物质，从塑料的生产消费到弃置再到回收利用的全生命周期来考虑，这样的话就不会将资源泄漏到环境中去。

Jiang Nanqing: The plastic problem is also a typical environmental problem. Plastic have been invented to make people's life more convenient. For example, many of clothes are made of dacron, which is plastic polyester; the agricultural film technology, has greatly increased the output; the plastic parts on cars provide a good cushion; and also electronics... So overall, plastic makes our life better, but the problem is that plastic is so closely related to people's life that it is difficult to form such a good management system. As a result, Alan MacArthur Foundation in the UK published the New Plastic Economics in 2016, which focuses to manage these substances through the idea of a circular economy, considering the entire life cycle of plastics from production, consumption, disposal to recycling, thus avoiding resource waste in the environment.


主持人：我觉得最可怕的还不是塑料很难降解和极大程度的破坏生物多样性，而是塑料微粒的存在。2019年，美国地质勘探局（USGS）的一项新研究表明，在科罗拉多州不同地点收集的雨水中，约90%的雨水含有细小的塑料碎片、珠子和塑料纤维。以及发现婴儿体内都存在塑料微粒，您可以和我们谈谈塑料微粒吗？

Host: I think the most terrible thing is not that plastics are difficult to degrade and destroy biodiversity to a great extent, but the presence of plastic particles. In 2019, a new study by USGS showed that about 90 percent of rainwater collected at different locations in Colorado contains tiny plastic fragments, beads, and plastic fibers. Even plastic particles exist in baby’s body. Can you talk to us about this?


蒋南青：塑料微粒的问题是一个新的问题，因为塑料本身是由树脂生产的，树脂的颗粒都是很小的，如果塑料不能完全被生物降解的话，它最后会变成微塑料颗粒。微塑料颗粒泄露包括两种，一种是无意识的泄露：我们在生活中的损耗摩擦就会导致它的泄漏，还有一种是有意的泄露，包括我们的化妆品、防晒霜、磨砂膏里面都有添加一定的颗粒。现在各国，像欧盟、美国等都开始禁止在化妆品中添加这种微粒，还有就是我们的衣物，在洗涤之后可能会形成塑料微粒随着下水道冲入海洋，通过生物摄入对人体或生物的健康带来危害。

Jiang Nanqing: It is a new problem. Because the plastic itself is made from resin, whose particles are very small. If the plastic is not completely biodegradable, it will eventually become microplastic particles. There are two kinds of microplastic particle leakage. One is the unconscious leakage that caused by daily wastage and frictions. The other is the conscious leakage, specifically, the cosmetics, sunscream and facial scrubs have added certain particles. Nowadays, many areas such as the European Union and the United States have banned the addition of such particles to cosmetics. Water from laundered clothes may contain plastic particles that wash into the ocean with the sewer, causing harm to the health of human beings or creatures through biological ingestion.


QUESTION5


主持人：所以，塑料的可循环利用最好是有一个全生命周期的供应链，我知道蒋老师您在这方面做了很多工作，能和我们分享一下吗？

Host: So, it is better to have a life-cycle supply chain for plastic recycling. Ms. Jiang, you have done a lot of work in this field, can you share any with us?


蒋南青：从全生命周期来看的话，我们塑料再生行业主要是想让所有废弃的这些材料都能够得以回收利用。我们现在有各种物理回收，比如我们的饮料瓶回收后，通过纺织厂可以把它去做成新的织物，我们还有化学回收的方式，因为塑料都是高分子聚合物，我们就通过将它的碳氢键打破，然后重新再聚合，无论你是什么样的塑料材质，都可以重新聚合成新的聚合物，再用到新的生产中去，但是现在成本还是比较高的。

Jiang Nanqing: In terms of the whole life cycle, the plastic recycling industry mainly hopes that all waste materials can be recycled. Now we have the way of physical recovery. For example, the textile mills can take the recycled bottles and turn them into a new fabric. At the same time, we have the way of chemical recovery, since plastics are polymers, we can break the hydrocarbon bonds and repolymerize them. No matter what kind of plastic material, we can repolymerize it into a new polymer, and then use it in a new production, but at present, the cost of this method is relatively high.



QUESTION6


主持人：您还有哪些环保方面的故事或感想想分享给我们吗？

Host: what other environmental protection stories or feelings would you like to share with us?


蒋南青：对于资源回收来说，最重要的首先就是要将垃圾分开，厨余垃圾和有资源性的产品是要分开回收的，否则的话这些产品就很难再被回收。这两年国内的各个城市都开始进行垃圾分类，公民的意识得到很大提高。另外，生产产品的企业要从产品的设计这块考虑，要考虑到这些设计是否能进行可回收可再生，同时，我们消费者也有自己的责任，那就是我们要把垃圾进行分类。

Jiang Nanqing: The most important thing for resource recovery is to classify the waste, such as kitchen waste and recyclable waste, or it will be difficult to reuse. In the past two years, various cities in China have started to implement waste classification, and citizens' awareness of waste classification has been significantly improved. In addition, manufacturers should consider whether a design can be recycled from the perspective of product design. Meanwhile, consumers should also establish environmental awareness of waste classification.


主持人：《当红生态》一直以来的梦想：将世界各地环保人士的故事或经验分享给更多的人，以促使形成更好的生态文明。您对《当红生态》有何评价？

Host: The long-cherished goal of Popular Eco-people is to share the stories or experiences of environmentalists worldwide with more people, so as to promote the ecological civilization. What's your comment on this?


蒋南青：我觉得做生态环保是一个很有意思的事情，它是融入在我们每天的生活里，但是能够真正理解生态环保，是一件非常不容易的事情，而能够真的把生态环保讲清楚以及和应用联系起来的人还不是那么多。所以，我觉得当红生态能够把这些专家人物邀请过来分享他们的环保故事，是一个非常好的事情，这也就相当于有了一个资源库、专家库，能够让更多的人认识到他们，然后提供更多的专业咨询的服务，我觉得这些都是非常好的。

Jiang Nanqing: I think this work is a fascinating thing. Ecological environment protection is integrated into our daily life, but it is not easy to really understand the connotation of ecological environment protection. At present, there are not many people who can totally explain and apply the concept of ecological environment protection. Popular Eco-People invites experts to share their environmental protection stories, which is equivalent to having a resource base or an expert pool. This program makes more audience to know about these experts and receive professional consulting services. These are all wonderful practices.


主持人：让我们再次用热烈的掌声感谢蒋南青老师的精彩分享。我是《当红生态人物》主持人郭智孚，今天的节目就到这里，我们下期再见。

Host: Let's thank Ms. Jiang for her wonderful sharing with warm applause again. I am the host of the Popular Eco-people, Guo Zhifu. That’s all for today, see you next time.


分享到：